tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11057324.post6627837321352447194..comments2023-06-13T10:03:01.228-05:00Comments on Blue Christian on a Red Background: "Touch Not God's Anointed": Trouble at Calvary ChapelJon Trotthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08667858230128323729noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11057324.post-24359836510155123422007-02-19T20:52:00.000-06:002007-02-19T20:52:00.000-06:00Regardless of when and how Pastor Chuck used that ...Regardless of when and how Pastor Chuck used that particular verse (unless he was making an illustration on what not to say when questioned about problems in the local church)it was an unfortunate response when CT interviewed him. <BR/><BR/>A diversity of co-leaders in a congregation that has the resources to support such a leadership team is a blessing to all. Alas, most churches are too small and financially extended to have 3 or more full time staff members. That is why I advocate a regional overseer with actual authority and national financial and ethical by-laws and oversight guidelines for church discipline and financial accountability. <BR/><BR/>Granted, if a pastor wants to color outside the lines he probably still will but the regional leaders along with the local church have real muscle to address and correct problems. Perhaps, that would keep the erring pastors from playing musical churches in the Calvary Chapel movement.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11057324.post-42371461886356341092007-02-19T12:09:00.000-06:002007-02-19T12:09:00.000-06:00I'm really not quite sure what to make of Chuck's ...I'm really not quite sure what to make of Chuck's comments without knowing the context in which they were made. For instance, the CT article just states "During the investigation for this article, Smith cautioned ..." That doesn't tell me anything of what led up to or triggered Smith's comments. I'm hoping the print article might reveal more (but I'm not holding my breath).Joycehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01997133316132366203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11057324.post-33007362982995167582007-02-19T07:55:00.000-06:002007-02-19T07:55:00.000-06:00You write, "Christians should have an almost Pavlo...You write, <I>"Christians should have an almost Pavlovian response when any -- I mean ANY -- alleged authority uses such Scripture twisting language to validate their actions and attitudes."</I><BR/><BR/>C'est moi, mon ami. And I'm just a schmuck who makes the sandwiches and does the laundry. Thanks for the discomfiting post.Whisky Prajerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14076228013022881173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11057324.post-26573920034342314882007-02-18T14:59:00.000-06:002007-02-18T14:59:00.000-06:00I agree with your sentiments based upon what the a...I agree with your sentiments based upon what the article seems to suggest. I do have to say, however, that I have become increasingly frustrated through my reading of Christianity Today because of the way it often does it's reporting. It often seems to reflect more what is in the author's mind than in what the individual(s) she / he is interviewing are truly saying.<BR/><BR/>I'm not saying that this is the case in this article - I'm just saying that I am sceptical. I have been interviewed a number of times for our local newspaper (and others) and have never (yes, I mean never) been satisfied that what I said (and meant) were accurately documented by the reporter. <BR/><BR/>The whole idea of not touching the Lord's annointed is a touchy one. I agree with your well-thought out feelings (and Wendy's incredible insights) on the matter. We do, however, have a lot to learn about David's hesitancy in knocking off Saul. In our current "nothing is sacred" climate we tend to automatically condemn our leaders rather than show to them any respect at all.Colin A. Lammhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09664725153256328396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11057324.post-34082940814358209342007-02-17T21:02:00.000-06:002007-02-17T21:02:00.000-06:00Jon, here are my comments on your recent blog. I b...Jon, here are my comments on your recent blog. I believe Chuck waved a red flag for you. I do think it was ill-advised for Chuck to use that particular scripture (several references in the OT 1 Sam. 26: 8-10, 1 Chron.16:22, Ps.105:15) and actually it was out of context. One reference concerns David. David said he would not physically harm King Saul but David and Samuel both spoke out against Saul's disobedience to the Lord and his injustices to themselves and others. Samuel personally saw God remove a good leader, Eli who did not discipline his "co-workers". Samuel and David knew that God would be the ultimate judge and God would physically remove King Saul in His time. God has never prohibited anyone from telling the truth in love. Does Pastor Chuck feel that someone is trying to harm him physically? If so, then those scriptures would apply. Still does Pastor Chuck want to compare himself to King Saul (or Eli?) who were in obvious disobedience to God?<BR/><BR/>A better scripture for Pastor Chuck would have been found in the NT, 1 Tim. 5:19. This scripture also allows public rebuke of an unrepentant elder if after several witnesses come forward with the accusations (the problems)and the accusations are proven to be true. <BR/><BR/>The CT article does not accuse Pastor Chuck of personal immorality, financial sins or doctrinal error. It does call into question matters of church governance or the lack of it. <BR/><BR/>With this said, I believe that Calvary Chapels in general are good churches as far as earthly churches go. They lack a central governing body (checks and balances), national policies for church finances, corporate matters, church discipline and largely are still operating on an independent local church model which is proving an ineffective method for overseeing the huge national and international Christian organization they have become.<BR/><BR/>No one leader can overseer an entire organization this large and even Moses was advised to set up governing bodies to help advise and overseer Israel. In fact Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy is filled with laws on governing civil, church and personal affairs and dividing the "nation" into territories (families/tribes). <BR/><BR/>This is a difficult transitional time for the Calvary Chapel movement and we should pray for them and continue encouraging them to form good national policies, oversight bodies and leaders for the 21st century. Please excuse any misspellings.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11057324.post-51311196286656064452007-02-17T15:38:00.000-06:002007-02-17T15:38:00.000-06:00Yes, I can understand your concerns about Chuck's ...Yes, I can understand your concerns about Chuck's application of this scripture to the present situation. Chuck would apply this scripture to all pastors not just himself, though. Chuck dislikes using public forums to air church problems. He does have a unique perspective on local church structure, also. It is more OT than Acts/NT in nature. But no particular church structure is without weaknesses. I personally endorse a more tribal/organic/ council type church government. (argh, but committees and governing by consensus takes forever!!!)<BR/><BR/>The problem isn't with the number of erring leaders or troubling church issues (that is the same everywhere in every denomination). The problem is lack of real authoritative structure in place to arbitrate, discipline (correct) or restore leaders/ or address problems. Calvary Chapel needs to evolve into the next step of national oversight to remain healthy. They have outgrown the local independent church government model. They need to convene and create national policies and national/regional boards to address and oversee church finances, ethics, business enterprises (such as properties, publishing, broadcasting, merchandising, trademakes), doctrinal and theological issues. These can be guidelines but national and regional overseers need real authority to intervene in local church crisis. I think a modified Evangelical Covenant Church model could be effective in addressing these problems and helping them grow into a healthy 21st century international organization. Of course, if in fact Calvary Chapel nationally takes this kind of direction it will alienate many local churches and pastors. You can't please everyone.<BR/><BR/>I admire Chuck Sr"s and Chuck Jr's continuing dialogue even when they disagreed on methodology, theology and worship expressions. I understand that the Senior has to voice his differences and yet proclaim his love for his son. My church is in between the two when it comes to our theological understandings and church expressions. We would find Junior's stance a little too left of center and Senior's position a little too right of center!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com